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Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

  • 1.  Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 04-06-2020 03:44 PM
    Edited by Hu Lan 21-11-2021 11:36 PM
    Dear TESOL Community,

    I am an adjunct instructor/instructional specialist who works at community colleges in California. I am getting my teaching credentials in adult education cleared this summer and I also earned MA in Education (TESOL) in 2016. I'm thinking of either pursuing an MS in Instructional Design and Technology (5 semesters), a doctorate program in Educational Leadership (Community College), or a doctorate program in Adult Education (3-4 years) online. I'm hesitant whether I need to get a loan and spend that much time and money for a second Master's degree/doctorate program and whether those fields have any promising job opportunities. The job market for full-time positions in higher education here in Southern California is very tough, especially in ESL and the competition is fierce. I'm doing some research regarding Instructional Design and Technology (MS), Adult Education (EdD), and Educational Leadership (EdD) fields and I'd like to hear your thoughts. I'm sure many are going to say it depends on my own preference and experience, but I would really appreciate it if you share your opinions. Also, I'd really appreciate it if you could recommend any schools that offer those programs fully online.

    Thank you in advance for your time and suggestions.

    Best,

    Hu Lan

    ------------------------------
    Instructional Specialist, Instructor
    United States
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 05-06-2020 09:21 AM
    Dear Khulan, 

    First of all, I wish you good luck with your decision!

    Second, I'll share my opinion on your options. Initially, I suspected that the MS in Instructional Design and Technology would probably give you the most opportunities for full-time work where you want to live. But then I realized that the EdD might also open up the door on several possibilities, if you're interested in administrative work. The EdD would also, of course, open the door on tenure-track faculty positions, but you'd most likely have to relocate for such a position. 

    You might also want to consider attending classes in person. I know that in-person classes seem more expensive and more disruptive than online classes, but you might be surprised. If you can land a teaching or research assistantship as a full-time on-campus student, you'll most likely get health insurance for the time you are enrolled, a monthly stipend, and a full or partial tuition remission. Moreover, you could probably manage to arrange your schedule in such a way that you could keep one or two of the adjunct positions that you currently hold. You might want to explore your options for in-person coursework!

    Again, I wish you the best of luck!

    Peace and All Good, 

    Dr. Lori Randall, PhD
     
    ***********************
    The spirit of the world, which is selfishness and envy and conspiracy and lust and terror, makes men loud from the fear of their own hollowness. But the Spirit of God gives them peace, teaches them not to be afraid of silence but to find themselves in quiet. 
    ----Thomas Merton, The Waters of Siloe







    ____________________________________________________________

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  • 3.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 05-06-2020 11:41 AM
    Edited by Hu Lan 21-11-2021 11:36 PM
    Thank you very much for your time and reply, Dr. Randall. I'll look around for regular doctoral programs and see what options I have. One more question: may I ask what do you think about MS in Instructional Design and Technology? I have read some reviews regarding that field and some were commenting that landing a FT position are pretty slim upon graduation and that it was a total waste of time. Just thought maybe TESOL folks have more information regarding this new field.

    Warmest regards,

    Hu Lan

    ------------------------------

    Instructional Specialist, Instructor
    United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 05-06-2020 01:39 PM
    Dear Khulan, 

    Speaking from my own experience on the job market (in Wisconsin) it seems like I'm always finding FT positions that look really appealing, but for which I'm not eligible because I don't have a background in instructional design and technology! Keep in mind that I tend to look at job listings for academic staff. These openings are generally in learning support centers or similar types organizations within large college or university campuses or within public school districts. So, personally, I've seen a fair number of jobs in the Midwest that require a background in instructional design and technology, but I don't know what the situation is like where you live. I do suspect that job opportunities in the field of instructional design and technology will increase, especially as we all become acquainted with the challenges of online teaching!

    Peace and All Good, 

    Lori 
    ***********************
    The spirit of the world, which is selfishness and envy and conspiracy and lust and terror, makes men loud from the fear of their own hollowness. But the Spirit of God gives them peace, teaches them not to be afraid of silence but to find themselves in quiet. 
    ----Thomas Merton, The Waters of Siloe







    ____________________________________________________________

    Top News - Sponsored By Newser



    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 06-06-2020 11:38 PM

    Howdy Khulan,

    Have you thought of switching from teaching college adults to public school students?  With your Master's Degree in teaching ESL, getting your license in California should be fine.  For sure, you must have met all teaching requirements as a California resident ESL teacher.  Like you, I have been teaching college students as an adjunct for several years---teaching ESL to adults in college level (full-time) is just not in abundant supply in my neck of the woods.   There have been setbacks for ESL teachers who are teaching adults in higher education (colleges and universities) presumably speaking---unless you venture out overseas, (e.g., Japan; Russia; China; Ukraine, et al) and many are teaching English overseas to this day.    

    California is a hot spot for ESL educators.  You should find it easier to get a full-time teaching position in public schools everywhere in California---ESL is in high demand there than anywhere else across the states line; including Texas.  Those two states are always seeking for ESL teachers-check out the school websites for teaching opportunity. 

    If you are serious about getting your PhD, find out if the school where you plan to attend would offer you a stipend.  A PhD degree is quite costly---you must know for sure if taking out a loan is a wise decision at this time of economic hardship, everywhere.  The last I heard there are now above 40 million Americans without work and are filing for unemployment---according to news report.  Without meaning to be loquacious on the subject further, I do believe California is still a viable state for ESL educators.   I do hope you will find what you are looking for, Khulan.   

    Well wishes,

    MerriLee  Leonard
    M.A.Ed.,TESL
    Greenville Univesity
    Author:  Beginner English Grammar Guide for English as a Second Language Students (1st Ed).
    ISBN-13: 978-1524962708.
    ISBN-10: 152-4962708.
     

     


    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 07-06-2020 03:19 PM
    Edited by Hu Lan 21-11-2021 11:38 PM
    Dear MerriLee,

    Thank you for your time and suggestion. I was looking into K-12 education, however, I am not quite sure if I will be able to teach 35-40 kids Mondays-Fridays and deal with administration and parents at the same time. As a parent I deal with it weekly and it's quite stressful. I envy K-12 teachers, but it's not my cup of tea, to tell you the truth. I feel comfortable working with adults since they know what they want and have their goals planned ahead of time. Teaching overseas is mostly for native speaking instructors due to the fact that employers prefer them than NNSTs. The applications get rejected on the spot as soon as they see that I'm an ESL person myself. :) Also, THANK YOU for pointing out the current economic situation and reality. This is definitely what needs to be considered, too.

    Sincerely,

    Hu Lan

    ------------------------------
    Instructional Specialist, Instructor
    United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 05-06-2020 04:14 PM

    Hi Khulan,
    There are also a number of PhD programs in Educational Technology or similar fields or you can probably find a program that allows for you to do a dual focus. I don't think you necessarily have to decide between a PhD and educational technology if those both interest you. Likely educational technology will be more employable as online and hybrid learning will probably continue to increase, as it is capable of reaching more students than traditional learning. Since you have a family, it may be difficult to move but there are a number of very good online programs. If you do decide on a PhD and you're able to do it locally, find out about funding and insurance options. I'm in a PhD program in second language studies and I'm fully funded with insurance. I personally would not do a PhD without funding and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else but that isn't always the an option for people (and online programs don't typically have funding).



    ------------------------------
    Alyssa Wolfe
    PhD student, Second Language Studies
    Michigan State University
    wolfealy@msu.edu/alyssa.n.wolfe@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 05-06-2020 04:41 PM
    Edited by Hu Lan 21-11-2021 11:39 PM
    Thank you, Alissa, for your opinion. That's a great point of view. I will definitely look into a dual focus. Why didn't I think of that?

    Warmest regards,
    Hu Lan

    ------------------------------
    Instructional Specialist, Instructor
    United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 05-06-2020 04:50 PM

    Dear Khulan,

    I think you have received great words of wisdom from Lori and Alyssa. With your permission, I would like to share my five cents as well. Personally, I have seen that the field of Instructional Design and Technology is increasing at a fast pace, so I would probably recommend this option if you are interested in that field. Although Educational Leadership (Community College) is another great choice, something to keep in mind is that, in my personal experience, full-time positions (both for faculty and leadership/administrative) in Communities Colleges are very competitive and there are very limited numbers of openings. 

    As far as Master's degree or Ed.D., I recommend pursuing an Ed.D. because it will open more doors for you professionally in the future, especially in higher education. If you are considering online programs, I recommend the American College of Education (ACE). Full disclosure, I am a Dissertation Core Faculty at ACE, so my recommendation might be biased. ACE offers Ed.D.s in different fields including:  

    • Adult and Continuing Education
    • Curriculum and Instruction
    • Early Childhood
    • Educational and Community Organizations
    • Health and Wellness
    • Higher Education
    • Online Education
    • Second Language Instruction
    • STEM Leadership

    In addition to these options, ACE also has great, competitive costs for their programs because they keep teacher salaries in mind. Here is the direct link to their Ed.D. programs: https://www.ace.edu/program/doctor-of-education-in-leadership

    I hope this information helps. Whichever option you choose, I wish you much success in this journey.

    Best wishes,
    Luis



    ------------------------------
    Luis Javier Pentón Herrera
    38th President (2018-2019), Maryland TESOL
    Co-Chair Elect, Social Responsibility Interest Section (SRIS)
    Member, Affiliate Network Professional Council (ANPC)
    Dissertation Core Faculty, American College of Education
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 07-06-2020 12:47 PM
    Edited by Hu Lan 21-11-2021 11:40 PM
    Thank you for your time and a valuable point of view, Luis. I'll look into your school and programs.

    Have a nice summer,

    Hu Lan

    ------------------------------
    Instructional Specialist, Instructor
    United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 06-06-2020 08:54 PM
    Hi Khulan,
    I am not sure what your ultimate goal is.

    1) If you want to teach ESL in a community college or adult ed environment, you DO NOT need a doctorate.  I have served on many hiring committees for community college teaching positions and we only ask for a Master's.  A doctorate doesn't give an advantage.  If fact it can be a detriment.  So you are just fine with a master's in TESOL.  However, a slight hiring edge is Instructional Design and Technology (MS).  I always look for that on the applications in the pool of candidates.  
    2) If you want to teach at a university, then you want a doctorate.  But what do you want to teach?  Instructional Design, Educational Techonology?
    3) If you are interested in a job in administration (Dean, VP),  then a doctorate in Edudcational Leadership is most appropriate.

    I have 3 master's degrees (including TESOL) and a doctorate in Instructional Design and Technology (only because I am a gluten for punishment. :-)  I love school!  So, again, what is your ultimate career goal?

    ------------------------------
    Sharla Jones
    Professor
    San Antonio College
    United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 07-06-2020 03:07 PM
    Edited by Hu Lan 21-11-2021 11:41 PM
    Thank you very much for your insight on hiring committee and time, Sharla! Those are great questions that I need to take into consideration before making my decision. It's different when someone is asking them. :)

    Best,

    Hu Lan

    ------------------------------
    Instructional Specialist, Instructor
    United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 10-06-2020 03:58 PM
    Khulan,

    Hello.  I'm glad you've received so much thoughtful advice from others in the field, but I was recently in a similar position to yours, so I thought I'd chime in.

    I have an MA in International Intercultural Communications, and an MATESOL.  My professional experience in International Education has been divided between teaching and administration - all in higher education.  I currently have a wonderful job as an assistant director of an Intensive English Program where my primary responsibilities include curriculum design and professional development initiatives.  Although I have no intentions of leaving my job anytime soon, I started thinking about broadening my knowledge base (and marketability) a couple of years ago and looked into an MA in Instructional Design.  I quickly decided that with two MA degrees under my belt, another MA wasn't worth it to me. However, in my research, I discovered the wonderful world of Certificate programs in ID.  For example, this program at the University of Central Florida is a fully online Graduate Certificate in ID:  https://catalog.ucf.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=4&poid=1250.  (I am not promoting this program, only mentioning it as one I'm aware of from other colleagues and one that I researched.) I applied for this program, but when I saw the syllabi and workloads for the courses, I decided that it was more than I could commit to at this time.  Luckily, I found another ID certificate program (not graduate level) at Seminole State College https://www.seminolestate.edu/catalog/programs/insdsgn-cc#tab-catalog-info.  I am taking two classes in this program this semester and I am thoroughly enjoying it.  I find I am learning a lot, but the workload is not as intense as the graduate certificate program looked.

    In short, have you considered any Certificate programs in Instructional Design or Higher Ed Admin/Leadership?   Maybe others will chime in on this advice, but I think it's something you may want to look into before committing to another MA.

    Take care,
    Tracey Partin
    Assistant Director IEP
    Valencia College

    ------------------------------
    Tracey Partin
    United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 12-06-2020 04:48 PM
    Edited by Hu Lan 21-11-2021 11:42 PM
    Hello, Tracey,

    Thank you very much for the links and for your input! I will definitely look into those programs, however, I wonder, if having certificates under the belt is good enough for the hiring committees.

    Have a nice day,

    Hu Lan

    ------------------------------
    Instructional Specialist, Instructor
    United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 11-06-2020 04:27 PM
    Hi Khulan,
    If you have gotten a lot of good advice and deciding what to do next can be difficult. As someone who has been on many community college hiring committees for different positions, I do want to say that there are times that having a PhD is viewed as a plus. It just depends on the hiring committee and the particular community college. It can also depend on what the PhD is in. I've noticed that many of the people at our college helping all of us to teach remotely do have either a Master's or PhD in Instructional Design.
    I'd also recommend asking people who have jobs that interest you what they recommend. You could also read job ads for positions that interest you and see what they require. Another place you can look is in the Occupational Outlook Handbook which gives education requirements, responsibilities, and future outlook. There are a limited number of full-time teaching positions in higher education so even with good degrees and experience, it can be difficult to get a full-time teaching position in higher ed. It seems that there are more full-time positions in teaching in K-12. If you are open to that, adding a teaching certificate might be another possible route.
    Terry Pruett-Said
    Macomb Community College
    Michigan

    ------------------------------
    Theresa Pruett-Said
    Macomb Community College
    [Warren][Michigan]
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 12-06-2020 05:17 PM
    Edited by Hu Lan 21-11-2021 11:44 PM
    Hello, Terry,

    Thank you for your thoughts and time! I will look into the Handbook and see the options. I know that K-12 field has more positions and opportunities, but I don't think I really want to deal with K-12 students, administration, state standards, and parents, however, I'll keep that idea as a last resort (there is an intensive teaching credential program that can be completed within 12 months).

    Have a nice summer,

    Hu Lan


  • 17.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 19-06-2020 09:42 PM

    Howdy Khulan,

    Are you still looking for a graduate program online?  Here's one cadre I thought you may want to ponder upon---the decision is entirely up to you now. 

    The school is ancient and the national accreditation is just as old---SACSCOC.    Come back and share your thoughts with us on the pros and cons about this program and the school itself. 

    • Program:  Doctor of philosophy in advanced studies.
    • Major:  Instructional Design and Technology (PhD)

    Program site:  https://www.liberty.edu/online-at-liberty/phd-in-advanced-educational-studies-instructional-design-and-technology/

    Best of luck,

    MerriLee  Leonard

    M.A.Ed.,TESL
    Greenville Univesity
    Author:  Beginner English Grammar Guide for English as a Second Language Students (1st Ed).
    ISBN-13: 978-1524962708.
    ISBN-10: 152-4962708.
    BookLink:  https://he.kendallhunt.com/product/beginner-english-grammar-guide-english-second-language-students    

     

     



    ------------------------------
    MerriLee Leonard
    ESL Adult Students Instructor
    ESL Adult Students InstructorESL Adult Students InstructorESL Adult Students InstructorESL Adult Students InstructorESL Adult Students InstructorESL Adult Students Instructor
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 22-06-2020 09:32 PM
    Edited by Hu Lan 21-11-2021 11:43 PM
    Thank you very much, MerriLee!

    Hu Lan

    ------------------------------
    Instructional Specialist, Instructor
    United States


  • 19.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 23-06-2020 10:05 AM
    Hi, Khulan,
    If you are interested in focusing on ID and TESL, I'm doing exactly that in a completely online EdD in Curriculum and Instruction - emphasis on Educational Technology, at the University of Florida. Currently, tuition is in-state for everyone, regardless of location. It is a cohort model. Email me for information. Best of luck on your search!
    UF COE EdD EdTech: https://education.ufl.edu/educational-technology/ed-d-online/

    ------------------------------
    Lia Brenneman
    University of Florida English Language Institute
    United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Ed.D vs. second MA/MS - your thoughts?

    Posted 27-06-2020 10:25 PM
    Edited by Hu Lan 21-11-2021 11:42 PM
    Thank you very much, Lia,

    I will check the program.

    Best,
    Hu Lan

    ------------------------------
    Instructional Specialist, Instructor
    United States